You make solid points. My panties were in a twist at the time of these original posts. I agree with you that we badly need every last Christian if we are to make significant progress. Antagonizing the majority isn’t the smart play. Were I to roll out an ambitious program of any sort, I’d certainly gather together religious leaders of all stripes to see what can be done to bring everyone into the new fold.

Also, environmentalism is absurdly abstract, I have to agree. Even environmentalists don’t agree on what the term means, and what weight to give the environment vs. the humans living in it. Human rights v. Nonhuman rights = Massive Clash.

On humanism, that’s an interesting distinction, and one upon which I must confess I hadn’t thought (awkward wording, no?). Religion will always have a place in society. While I am frustrated with the violence it breeds (every major conflict currently raging on the globe), it’s simplest ideas (be good, do good) shouldn’t be tossed with the bathwater.

“Don’t criticize me for not being a bridge builder. I’m not a carpenter, after all. It’s up to the Christians to recognize that they’ve been screwing up the show for a long time.”

But, you (as an atheist) are not a factor in the green movement, they (as christians) are. By antagonizing them, in stead of facilitating them to focus on what should be their natural penchant (stewardship), you’re working against the cause you claim to work for. Are you sure you’re not just trying to score theological points? Surely you know you’re not helping things get better for the environment.

People draw inspiration from religion for any number of things, and it can be good or bad. For instance, it wasn’t atheists that formed the backbone of the US civil rights movement, but christian churches. Notably, the European green movement started out as a distinctly christian affair, and churches remain an important part of their base. Environmentalism is a pretty abstract goal for most of us, and most of the “fixes” require change in our lives, some of it rather drastic, and often unpleasant. To get people to work towards an abstract good that requires real sacrifice, they need to be convinced of its necessity, which is very hard, or they must buy into an underlying ideology. That ideology can be socialist, christian, pagan, humanist, etc…

On a related note: Europe is far more secular than the US. An important reason for this is the success of small-h humanism, which can be described reasonably accurately as enlightened christianity. This stands in contrast to big-H Humanism, which is the virulently anti-religious version of humanism that dominates in the US (and some other places, like India). In my view, the extremism of the US Humanists (e.g. AHA) and atheists (e.g. AAA) is one of the main reasons that secularism failed to take hold in the US.

I think we’re on the same page but I may have muddied my point. When I spoke of survival circuitry, my intention was to agree that we are now and forever have been ‘born Pagans’ to a great degree. Other religions are learned but must be based on our innate connections, thus the high degree of overlap.

Does that make sense?

I still feel that the origins of paganism go earlier - to the first time that humans began to place themselves in the world. At the point where interacting with the natural surroundings, that critical juncture is where I believe the true roots lie.

This would predate civilizations, instead finding tribal aspects of ancestry. I suppose if I substituted “nature worship” rather than Paganism it might be more palatable?

I know that the point is mere semantics, but your insight into survival circuits drove me to respond..

Johnny

Ah, but the court is now hearing the case. We\’ve only two judges, but it will do, no? I agree that Paganism is more or less built into our survival circuitry (just wait til they unlock the religion gene!). What I meant to say is that there are very early Christian environmentalists who may predate some modern Pagan practices. Without a doubt, Paganism predates all Xtian concepts and, yes, we all know that Xtianity is barely removed from Sumerian and Egyptian religions in its concepttion of the trinity, the old testament fables, et cetera. Believe me, I\’d trust the earth in the hands of the Pagans as they\’ve historically demonstrated an affinity for natural divinity that most other religions have not. You\’re also spot on in positing that the transition will be painful - and most likely not in time.

Cheers!

That said, nature worship - the inherent relationship between humans and their surroundings - goes all the way back to the cavemen. It wasn’t until societies emerged that religion became a required means of controlling poopulations.

I feel reasonably assured that Paganism in some form predates everything but human conciousness, and cognition (easily usurping any propagandized religious claims)… From that point forward we needed to place ourselves into surroundings just to eat, sleep, and live with some form of reliability…

The current “true christians” as you denote, are arguably the latest “Johnny-Come-Lately” as they are breaking free from the impingements of a societal serving mechanism, mainly their religion, and looking back to where me and my pagan brethern have existed for centuries. Nature, and our relationship with god.

Transitioning from the Victorian remnants of religious doctrine can’t be easy for them, so thanks again for the nice article!

Johnny (not John)

You raise a great point. Yet, one must remember that from the onset, there were Christian sects who very much valued nature and incorporated, syncretically, many pagan elements that reflected this respect (many are still present, of course, in their traditions but have been long divorced from the original intentions). Were it to go to court, you\\’d have to prove that your brand of paganism predates the Christian usurpation of paganistic rituals. That is, next to the original \”true\” Christian environmentalists, you may just be a Johnny-Come-Lately!

what about us pagans though? where did we get left out of the whole nature worship arguement? I mean, if christians start to adopt a nature protection / worship element to their faith, doesn’t that make them libel for the same heresy that killed so many of my ancestors?

johnny